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Banners on Hold


Posted by EM Elisabella on 11/10/10


Banners are on hold until further notice. No further applications will be considered at this time.


Comments:

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith says:
November 10, 2010 at 10:57 pm
I do hope that the submission process is reviewed, and that the originally stated intent of forwarding the idea of Community is returned to as part of the process. In my belief, the number of people involved in a particular area should not matter so long as there is community interaction — doing something for the Community should _always_ be worthy of banner recognition, particularly now that they’re linked, because it will allow people greater ease of attending community events.

Additionally, I think that large guilds also have the right to be recognized because of their activity base.

I think the Banner Recognition Program is a good thing, and that the process should always err on the side of Community than on the side of head count.

Thank you to the EMs and Mesanna for all you do, and I hope that whatever issues with the program can be quickly resolved.

MyTwoCents says:
November 12, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Response to the above comment:

The program is meant to recognize townships, and NOT a catch-all-community-interaction-recognition-system. There will always be that one astounding merchant with a famous mall, an amazing tavern, etc. But, those are NOT towns. This program is meant for TOWNSHIPS and only legitimate townships should be recognized. Not doing so dilutes the point of it and discourages people from working towards a common goal of building a town (like in the old days).

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith says:
November 12, 2010 at 5:21 pm
In response to the GreAt LakEs aNonymous poster above:

I disagree that the program was only intended to recognize specific townships, because townships of “1″ (ie: settlement) are allowed in the very definition of the program, and some banners have been granted on various shards that might come to the definition of a township by number but not by effort into a community (ie: I own 9 plots, but I don’t actually do anything with them).

The program — in any understanding that I’ve ever derived from it — was to further community and events held by community. I’m not stating that this means “RP Community,” “PvP Community,” or otherwise, but rather that the overarching goal was to provide a means (the eventual and now present banner linking) for those who do things for the community to provide a way for new players and old to learn of their events but as importantly get there without having to decipher a map or pray a rune is still laying on the ground.

Places like MOA, CFC, FCB, et cetera may have numerous houses, but they are typically known for their single contribution to the game, and those most certainly should be recognized. Places like the Library of Sosaria Complex are good RP and rune library contributions to the community, but certainly wouldn’t be considered an “active township.” They too should be recognized for contribution to community.

As for the final category that I see — those being granted to guilds who band together — well, that plays more to the headcount than community involvement, but I don’t see their claims as less valid than others. The only ones I would see as not being valid, per se, is one person who owns ten plots saying, “Please give me a banner to decorate my achievement of holding open multiple accounts.” But that lies in the purview of the EMs to approve.

However, at its core, the binding thread to the “township” program is, indeed, community. For a township should, at its core, be a community. A few houses in the same spot don’t make one. It’s the player activity in and around those spots that make it both township and community. And that is both what the program should support and err on the side of.

Galen says:
November 12, 2010 at 11:17 pm
[GreAt LakEs aNonymous]

Hmm….I wonder if there could be a message there.

Let’s take the upper-case letters, perhaps that is a clue.

G-A-L-E-N.

Hey, that’s my name! One could think that Ra’s player thinks it’s me who made that comment!

No, try again. I have no thoughts on the banner program, at least none that I care to voice, anonymously or not.

I don’t play the “anonymous” game; haven’t for a very long time.

You owe me an apology, and the EMs as well for using their comment board (for want of a better thing to call this) to take a shot at me for whatever reason. I would also appreciate an explanation as to what on Earth could possibly have led you to think I’ve posted that. The “like in the old days” comment should have been a substantial clue.

-Galen’s player

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith says:
November 13, 2010 at 12:44 am
If it’s not you, then I do, indeed, apologize.

What made me think it was you was the specific language of it. You might take offense to it, or think it was a “shot,” but I figured it was you because it was an intelligently written, grammatically coherent thought expressed. To put a fine point on it, I could sort of hear your voice speaking the words as written. It wasn’t meant to offend, however.

Truly, it was not meant as a dig, it was meant as a response because I (apparently mistakenly) thought it was you.

And since it isn’t you, I’m very curious who it is.

MyTwoCents says:
November 13, 2010 at 12:35 pm
I agree with you that roles which contribute towards the community should be recognized and rewarded. However, that can and must be done outside of the township program.

I fail to see how settlements of 1 house can honestly call themselves a town. Other types of community contributions should be recognized without making a charade of the township program. Anyone applying for a township recognition should honestly ask themselves if they are indeed a town.

And no, I am not Galen or anyone else you may know considering I have no idea who you are. My opinion stands for itself.

Lady Martyna Z'muir says:
November 13, 2010 at 4:18 pm
If you believe the banner system to only have meaning as a ‘township,’ you are greatly mistaken. The system wasn’t created to *only* recognize ‘towns’, nor has it ever been strictly relegated to such. In fact, calling the system “Town Banners” is an extremely poor choice of words.

Several singular buildings have been recognized on several shards for their contributions to the overall community. Read the first item on the list of ‘Community Size and Allegiance’: 1-4 Establishment. Such places have just as much right to be recognized as a town or collection of buildings owned by one or two people. Everyone seems to have lost sight of this.

What has diluted the system and made it charade has been the creation of a banner for a guild which offers nothing back to the shard’s community, nor supports events in any fashion. Simply having many houses doesn’t magically make ‘a community.’ A community is the people interacting in mutually beneficial ways to enhance quality of life. In a game, that would include the whole shard – not just a tiny subset of players. The notion that a ‘larger town’ doesn’t need to be as active as a ‘smaller’ one strikes me as completely counter-intuitive. Logically, if there are ‘more people’ than they should be more active, not less.

Elizabella says:
November 13, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Ra’Dian, you ask if the Town Recognition and Banner program will come back quickly. No, I will not resume accepting applications until at least January. In that time, I shall review our current guidelines and make them simpler, clearer, and better. I’m studying how other shards handle town recognition. Great Lakes’s new rules and procedures will look a lot more like those of other shards. For one thing, the new process will be transparent, with applications and proposed banner pictures on display for all to see.

Martyna, I copied that list from Chessy’s banner page. It was meant to show a town what names it could use for itself.

When I first tried to create rules for GL banners, back in February, I asked at the end of a mini-meet&greet what towns GL had. I then visited those towns and thought about how my rules could be written to acknowledge them.

Some of GL’s towns are small. Some of them are spread out, even across facets. I emphasized the activity requirement so I’d have a way to include them.

It was always meant to be inversely proportional. A small town could earn a banner with only three houses, if it was very active. A large town probably would have been eligible for a banner anyway, under most systems.

A large group of houses in the same spot don’t necessarily make a town. However, the absence of that does make the process very subjective.

MalagAste says:
November 13, 2010 at 7:36 pm
I agree with Ra’Dian and Martyna. I considered the site to be exactly what it said it was to be.

1-4 houses an ESTABLISHMENT. MOA is certainly a recognized Establishment…. the provide a service to the community as does CFC and FCB they have every right to be recognized for what they are and what they do for the community of GLs. As does the Library of Sosaria who provides a very good library of the history of GL’s RP as well as housing some pretty good stories, as well as the website which includes lots of information on the current EM program as well as other things that help people wanting to know more about these things. Not only that but it’s second building provides runes to places and being located near the Yew moongate certainly helps young players find their way around and helps old returning players catch up.

It shouldn’t be just about towns. Period. It should be about the community. And devotion to the community. And I don’t want to get into a pissing match with anyone over any of it but we all know who does and doesn’t do things for the community. And while many of you may not know of me many people who do know me know I am always doing things for the community of GL’s. If not helping new people, helping those who have recently returned to the Game I’m often helping with events, attending others events and supporting them as well as hosting my own events. Not necessarily in Newcastle but often at the Yew-wood Theatre because it’s well always been easier to get to than Newcastle. Trust me far too many folk can’t find Newcastle.

I just want to say that recognition should not be based on how many houses you have. Or how many people in your “guild”…… Certainly it’s nice that larger guilds are recognized but really many of the larger guilds actually do things for the community.

In my opinion the Banners should be about community action… the promotion of community and support of people be they individuals or entire guilds who dedicate and devote time and effort to community and the whole of GL’s.

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith says:
November 14, 2010 at 7:07 am
Elizabella, I’m not asking the program to come back quickly… but I also would hope (and it sounds by your response such will be the case) that it won’t be gone indefinitely either. I certainly understand creating a better rules process. All I would ask is that at its core, the program continues to be about community over head count.

I know there’s been an opinion expressed in this thread that it’s more about building towns like in the old days. What I think the mysterious, anonymous poster has forgotten is that those old towns first, and foremost, benefited from an exponentially larger playerbase. But, forgoing that, townships, cities, villages, empires, whatever you want to call them, including establishments, are all forged around one common word: community. If you toss five homes into the woods, that’s not a community, that’s a geographically dense region of housing. If you toss one home into the woods, advertise events, promote services, and people suddenly start visiting that house regardless of its locale, it starts to become community.

Further, the more people you bring into such places, the more likely they are to expand.

So… activity is clearly an important key, but the largest tumbler in the lock still belongs to community engagement. The banner hub itself is ideal for the situation as well, because it creates a place for people to go to learn about what community places exist. In fact, if it has not already been considered, I’d suggest making a link to that hub from New Haven (though there might need to be some warning about Feluccan links).

In the end, as I’ve said before, I’m not against large guilds getting recognition either. After all, in order to have grown that large, they clearly must have been active, and people must like what they’re doing.

However, as Martyna has pointed out too, there should be some sort of policing in some of this too. A banner given to a guild that not only has frequently griefed public EM events, but has also griefed public player-run events are probably the last group of people who should receive any sort of recognition at all.

Anyhow, I definitely support refining the rules, and truly I appreciate what you, Malachi, and Mesanna do for Great Lakes. The shard is DEFINITELY a better place due to your collective involvement.

Elizabella says:
November 14, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Yew Militia has been brought to my attention and I’d like to address that.

October 1st: I received a town application for Yew Militia with proposed banner picture. October 1st: The township application was mostly complete and approvable, so I responded that I needed to know if it wanted to be called “‘Yew Militia’, or ‘Yew Militia Township’”. I also asked them to give me runes to the houses in the town or take me on a tour. The proposed banner had obvious defects that would have caused Mesanna to reject it, so I asked them to design a new banner. October 2nd (approx.): I was given rune books to Yew Militia. October 28th: I emailed to see how the re-design was coming along.

Those are the only communications I’ve had to or from Yew Militia.

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith says:
November 15, 2010 at 11:57 am
A quick question about the Yew Militia banner issue — as I’m the guy who put together the one that was initially emailed to you (I do seem to get around a lot in banner design, eh? hehe)…

The point was raised about its location, which I know YM was ready to concede and to my knowledge had a couple of other areas in mind though, I guess given the design of the banner, I was a bit confused as to the issue with it going across a road since it didn’t block the road off.

The second point, about its design, was basically that it was a “building” rather than a banner. The intent in the design was as a “guard tower” feel to it since, after all, it was the Yew Militia. It was designed in accordance with the basic design they’ve used on a majority of their building, and it stayed to a 6×6 design.

My question is why would that design cause Mesanna to reject it? I’m not trying to get into a contest with other shards as to their designs or anything, but I’ve seen docks, I’ve seen parks, I’ve seen pools, and even here on GL, an entire arena constructed. I’m unsure why a 6×6 guard tower would have caused Mesanna to reject it. Now, perhaps she would, but I guess my other question would be, would it have caused an issue just to run it by her? I did specifically design it as a 6×6 to adhere to space requirements, and also took as simple an approach to the design as possible (using ladders, and only a roof, not making it a true multi-level structure (meaning it didn’t go up to a second floor and then the roof, but rather the ladders wrapped directly to the roof).

And trust me, by no means am I trying to sound mean or demanding about this. Truly, I’m just curious about it. I admit that I went a little more in detail on that banner than I have on others, but with each banner design I’ve done, I stuck to the 6×6 requirement and also tried to build something in the spirit of the community it was representing. To me, the guard tower was the perfect embodiment of the YM, and in truth, given other banner designs I’ve seen live, I truly believe it would be possible.

Anyway, thanks for reading!

Elizabella says:
November 15, 2010 at 11:24 pm
Ra’Dian, the design did block parts of the road. Look at this image; it’s blocking the edges of the road. As I told Yew Militia, a banner can go across the road, but the supports must rest on the grass. No part of the banner may rest on the road. Also, a banner that goes across the road is usually only one-tile wide.

From experience, I knew that a building-type banner would be turned down. What would it hurt “just to run it by her?” What if every EM did that with every player request?

As I mentioned to YM, a banner can be larger than 6×6 if it doesn’t block movement. I gave the example of some Catskills banners, such as Aegis. You can now see a park-style banner on GL at Rolling Hills.

CFC was unusual: here was their design that I approved. It turned out to be impossible to build. Mesanna came up with a unique and really cool solution, which was to make a working fighting pit instead. It seems to me that it’s a gift to Great Lakes, like the Thurisaz Monastery or ToM’s graveyard. It’s disappointing to know that it’s a point of contention to some.



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